How Wisdom Circle Is Redefining Retirement Through Purpose-Driven Work | The AgeTech Podcast S5E2 with Wisdom Circle’s Neeraj Sagar

Keren Etkin: Neeraj, welcome to the show.

Neeraj Sagar: Thank you. Thank you, Keren. Good to see you again.

Keren Etkin: So can you tell us the origin story of Wisdom Circle? What drove you to start this company?

Neeraj Sagar: You know, it’s so, okay, so couple of reasons. So, number one was I used to color my hair and I used to color my hair till I was in my early forties. I’m 54 right now. And when I stopped coloring my hair, I suddenly realized everything had gone white. And then people started looking at me different.

Like I was getting a lot more respect. I, I used to be able, you know, I can, I could formally cut lines just because I was considered older. I always got a seat on a public transport because people older than me would get up for me. I started getting more discounts at pharmacies. It was quite interesting, right?

So when that started happening, and I was, I think in my early forties, then. I said, look, there’s something here. Something is not right. Right. Because I was the same person and suddenly people were treating me with a lot of respect. But at the same time, there were also this other group that was saying, oh, it’s he, he, you know, won’t be able to do it.

He’s old. So in fact, one of my colleagues who was older than me in my company asked me when I was retiring and I told him, I said, look, I’m younger than you, and he had another 10 years to retire. So, so he’s like, oh, really? So. I think in a way that that started playing in my head saying, look, there is something here about aging that I am not familiar with.

And then COVID happened when? When COVID, and so I used to be a head hunter. I worked with a firm called Egon Zenda. So I used to have a lot of people who would reach out to me for advice saying, Neeraj, we are retiring. What should we do? And I honestly, I mean, I work for one of the largest search firms in the world, and even I didn’t have an answer.

Right. So, you know, you could be a board member, an advisor, but there were not enough opportunities. So, so that is playing on, on one side, which is every day sort of interacting with people who are nearing formal retirement. Me being considered older and therefore getting a lot of respect. And the third thing that’s that happened was COVID and when COVID happened.

This is when I took your course and I sort of learned a lot about AgeTech, saw the AgeTech map for the first time. I did a lot of introspection and learning around the science of longevity. And when I real, what I realized was that everyone was solving for us to live longer, but the gap I saw was no one was solving for what will people do if they live longer?

So that’s in a way, and I said, look, I, I am good at, so I initially, when I started the idea was I can do this, I can do that. But then I narrowed it down to saying, look, what am I good at? And I’m good at connecting organizations to individuals. And I said, look, can I take that and, and use that in this, this world of career is what we call it now where people have stepped away from full-time careers.

Connect them to organizations that can leverage their wisdom, their experience, their knowledge for the benefit of organizations, and in return, giving individuals an extension of purpose. That’s the origin story.

Keren Etkin: I, I love that. I love that. Once you stop dyeing your hair in your forties,

Neeraj Sagar: Okay.

Keren Etkin: You suddenly. People start suddenly started treating you differently, both with respect and also with some aspects of ageism

Neeraj Sagar: Uh, You know here, here’s one specific example. I, so I used to, you know, because I was in client service, right? I would go to see clients, some clients. In fact, most clients, because I had black hair, I looked younger, would make me sit outside in the reception for the chairman to come, or the CEO to come suddenly with white hair, I would get ushered in directly into the boardroom.

I would be given better cutlery to drink my tea. I mean, these are subtle things, but it kind of tells you, at least in our ecosystem how, you know, age is respected. So in fact, it’s, to me, it’s actually the positive side of ageism in a way. Again, but at the same time, there is the downside of, I don’t think he’s capable of doing, you know, X or Y, but but it, it just, it still

Keren Etkin: find it interesting that even people who knew you personally, like your colleagues, treated you differently.

Neeraj Sagar: And it’s and, but you know, in a way that’s, that’s the introspection that started saying, look, there’s something here. There’s something that we socially experience it, but don’t get to think about it. So in fact, I think I’m fortunate that I got to think about it earlier and therefore what started, and you of course have started this much, much earlier, right?

So for, for me, it was a big learning. I mean, I was I was thinking, shit, why didn’t I think, why didn’t I stop covering my hair here 10 years, even earlier? Because I used to, you know, my, I have a genetic white hair problem. And I, you know, I think anyway,

Keren Etkin: You could have been getting the good cutlery all along.

Neeraj Sagar: I, you know, that’s what I’m saying. And I, I, so I, you know, I went renew my driver’s license during COVID, and I was in and out of an Indian. Driving license renewal office in 15 minutes because the guy who was, who was ushering people in saw me with white hair, called me in saying, sir, you go right in the front.

It has never happened to me in my life. Right? I, you know, in India’s all about lines, and then I was getting preferential treatment, so it was quite nice.

Keren Etkin: Wow. It, it kind of feels like a, a cultural thing. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t feel that you could cut in line in, in most other countries

Neeraj Sagar: Correct, correct.

Keren Etkin: your hair is white.

Neeraj Sagar: You know, I think that Correct. It’s a and you know, I sometimes take the local metro to work. There’s a section of you know, where they have so if you’re pregnant, if you’re older, if you’re handicapped. So there are these reserves you know, seats. So I always go and stand there and there’s always somebody who gets up for me.

And there’s sometimes there are people who are older than me who get up for me. And you know, I, you know, when, and I’ve realized that giving people your seat is good for the people who are giving the seat. So I accept the seat and I sit down because I, I want to make other people feel better about themselves.

So

Keren Etkin: sure. it definitely fe feels

Neeraj Sagar: I think that

Keren Etkin: your city in public

Neeraj Sagar: correct, correct.

Keren Etkin: So, so how does Wisdom Circle work? Let’s say I am a newly retired person, so I went traveling. Now I’m back. I want to find a new career adventure. I sign up for Wisdom Circle, and then what?

Neeraj Sagar: Okay. So actually let me take a step back and actually explain to you what our model is. How and what are we really solving for? So the first thing we do is, so we are essentially a marketplace that is trying to connect organizations. To post-career professionals. It just so happens we have way more post-career professionals who want to work than organizations or roles so far.

So just to give you some numbers we have about a hundred thousand people who’ve signed up on our platform. White collared. So our, we cater to white collar 50 plus. But we don’t have any restriction. Anyone can sign up, even if you’re in your forties, that whatever you can sign up because we don’t stop anybody from signing up because our view is, look, you’re gonna get old one day.

So at, at one, you know, and we are here to stay. So come, you know, the door is open. So, so that’s what we call supply, which is with, you know, post-career professionals signing up. Our focus is only short duration or part-time roles. We do not do career roles because we say, look, if you’re looking for a career, the way we define a career is a role where if you work very well, you’ll get a promotion.

That’s a career role. We say, if you’re looking for a career role, don’t come to Wisdom Circle. But if you’re looking for a good short term or part-time engagement, come sign up. Right? So that’s the supply side. On the demand side, we do the same thing with organizations. We tell organizations, look, if you want to tap into this talent pool, please come sign up and we will help you find, and, and so you know what we, and I’ll tell you what we’ve learned also, that was the original design and that’s how we are still working.

We started with India. Now we are actually in, in Europe, we are in the uk. We are in the Middle East, we are in Singapore, and we are in Africa because we’ve realized that, you know, we are in a way connecting talent pools across the world. So if someone is you know, for example, let’s say engineers in Germany who retired, if Germany can’t absorb them, you know, can other countries absorb them?

So we focus on specific skills and matching them. So. The real business we are in honestly, is creating jobs because there are way more people who want to con contribute meaningfully than there are formal jobs today in the market because a lot of people worry about jobs. That you’re taking away jobs from younger people.

Younger people need those jobs, especially in countries like ours in India. That worries that. And we tell people, look, we are not here to displace younger people’s jobs. We are here to supplement those jobs. We are here to add value to organizations that can either train their younger people can bring in expertise, which would otherwise take much longer to get.

Or otherwise, you have to go to a consulting company to hire. And honestly, these people can join much faster. They don’t have notice periods. They’re not driven by money. I’m not saying money is not important, but they’re not driven by money. So essentially for both sides, for the supply side, we are solving for relevance and respect.

Because what we realize is, you know, at the end as we get older, we want to feel relevant when we want. And getting paid is a form of respect, right? So that’s what we are solving for, for younger, for the supply side, retirees, if you will. And for the organizations we are solving for faster hires, value additive people who basically come in and hit the ground running who are.

Less expensive per unit of wisdom. I think there’s something I coined. I said, look, how do I explain? Because per unit of wisdom, people who are wiser, actually much more economical. I, of course we don’t, you know, say it explicitly because it sounds very transactional when you talk about intelligence, but we tell organizations that, look, you can get someone.

Who can come in with a lot more experience. Who can upskill your younger people, who can bring in a specific expertise that you otherwise would have to go to a consulting company to hire? Because companies use the, so we are in the, and I what you realize is that there’s nobody really thinking about this globally at the scale we are thinking about because we, our view is.

Every single person who has stepped away from a full-time career who’s over the age of 50, should first come to our platform to find meaningful work. And meaningful work for us is three kinds. One is professional work, which is organizations that are leveraging your skills. Supply chain, manufacturing, marketing, finance, whatever it may be.

The second is we want to create a million teachers out of this segment. Which is, it’s a struggle because the monetization model isn’t that good. But I view always, look, you have so much wealth of experience and at one level we all talk about shortage of educators, shortage of this. And again, you know, AI is a different ballgame and we’ll talk about that.

And the third is actually doing work in the social sector. We’ve actually been surprised that we have found more acceptance. With nonprofit and social organizations wanting to hire post-career professionals to actually formalize or professionalize their social impact organizations they may not be able to pay as well, but you know, again, this segment is not only looking for money, they’re looking for relevance.

And sometimes working for a nonprofit gives them that. So, so to answer your question, they come in, they sign up, and they can see the roles.

Keren Etkin: It, it doesn’t surprise me at all that nonprofit sectors or organizations that are trying to do something for the greater good are more open to hiring these, like you said, post-career,

Neeraj Sagar: Okay.

Keren Etkin: Individuals because in these sectors, experience is really something that is valued and they don’t necessarily chase after. The younger employees who would are willing to work 20 hours a day.

Neeraj Sagar: And, you know, the other, the learning. So, so we’ve interviewed thousands of people, right? And, in a way, Keren, I’ve come up with, and I’m not sure if, if you, if this may be a good forum to sort of tell you this, and maybe this is something, and we’ve interviewed thousands of people across countries. Right.

Because we realized that the problem that we are trying to address is the same in no matter which country. The manifestation of it is different, right? Because for example, in some markets earning money is more important because the, the. Government support systems are not as strong. But if you go, if you go to Europe, it’s very different.

If you go to Asia, there’s some countries where the pension systems are much stronger. So where people have saved up enough or are gonna get enough where they’re not wanting to work only for the money. But then there are some countries where money is important because if you have to survive and the, and the social infrastructure is not supporting you, you need the money, right, to pay for health insurance costs, to pay for living costs and the like.

But the fundamental, this thing is around relevance, right? So that’s the consistent theme across. Anyway, I, I can keep going, so I will pause then let you ask the questions because I can get distracted very quickly.

Keren Etkin: Sure. So how does the, the matching work, I assume there is like some AI in the, in the backend that you’re

Neeraj Sagar: Yeah,

Keren Etkin: How does that

Neeraj Sagar: correct. No, it’s actually quite simple. I mean, we,

I.

So right now. So we built an AI tool which matches people’s expectations with roles that are posted. And it’s again, a very simple, again, not simple now because AI is much simpler now than it was even before we started. So for example, people, organizations can come in, put a jd, and within seconds actually see, you know, here are the five most relevant people on our platform that fit.

They can invite them to apply. Now here’s what’s different about our model. In our model, we do not give access to our database, right? So what we say is the way, and this is the search learning that I’ve had, because being an executive search consultant, what we tell people is that look post a role and wait for people to apply.

Only if they apply are they then screened and considered. Now, here’s the difference, right? When you post a role, you have to be clear with how much you’re going to pay people, right? You say, look, I need you for, you know, x many days a month, I’m gonna pay you so many dollars a month. They have to be clear with that number.

This whole notion of negotiation we’ve actually taken out of the system because one of the things we’ve realized that we’ve studied this segment, so you know quite a lot. We’ve realized that people that they say don’t want to negotiate, right? What they’re saying is, show me a role. If I like it, I will apply again, very different from executive search or search or finding a job when we are younger Now.

And we run, run this confidentially because people don’t want to, you know, show that they’re looking for a job. Right. It’s also, there are all these very interesting nuances of. This segment. So we’ve of course made, made the the ui, ux, very friendly, et cetera. So coming back with the tools, the AI uses a lot of the algorithmic functions that we have defined both on what people want, what companies want, and what is fixed.

Versus what is nego? So we don’t have negotiable options because in normal placements, compensation negotiation is the most complicated part of closure. We have taken that out of the system. We think there is no negotiation. We tell organizations you have to be fair because if you’re not fair, you will not get the right people to apply.

If you want the right people to apply. You know, put out what you can pay for some, for a role like this. Let people, and then you screen them if, if they fit what you need. So that is what is working and what is very different for us. And now in the, in the background, there’s a lot of interesting matching that works.

We of course have built a lot of you know, we built a lot of AI backend technology. We are not doing AI front end because what we realize is one this segment that we are catering to. Prefers a lot more human interaction. Prefers a lot more like we have a number where someone can call 24 7, so we are doing things now.

It’ll evolve over time because as. Today’s, you know, 40-year-old becomes 50-year-old, their requirements will be different. So our company will evolve as we get older or as we also become more experienced you. But right now we are solving for today’s segment. So our view is solve for today, evolve as the segment evolves

Keren Etkin: I love that. And so it’s a very high tech, high touch

Neeraj Sagar: it. Correct. I, and it’s also, you know, and by the way, we’ve also with the community, so what we realize now, this is a. What we realized because we can’t help everyone, right? So I, I mean, just even us today, right? We have 2000 odd roles. We have a hundred thousand people in the platform. I can’t help all, although I would love to figure out how to help all a hundred thousand find something while we work on creating more jobs.

There are many, many people who will be disappointed when they come. So couple of things, right? We don’t charge anybody to come sign up on our platform because. You know, one, the, it’s not fair, right? I think the segment also doesn’t like spending on themselves, and that’s something we’ve learned. So anyone is free to come sign up.

We also built a community and community groups where a lot of people engage on, we also gives them a lot on, in terms of. We hold curiosity talks. That’s what we call it by the way, where people from the segment come in and talk about something that they know. We bring in speakers to talk about something.

So we, we, every week we do engagement and it’s free because it allows people to stay connected with. This, and we, you know, we have ask us anything sessions on how to sign up and all of that. So that’s one big piece of what we do because our monetization model comes from organizations who, who leverage these folks as opposed to from people who want jobs.

Keren Etkin: That makes a lot

Neeraj Sagar: And we, by the way, the, the other thing which we started doing, which we realized is we are also helping organizations manage their own retirees. Right. So a lot of organizations want to do good for their retirees, but don’t know what to do. Because the only, you know, they’ll do training programs. They’ll say, look, we can help you with finance, you know, financial planning and the like.

But you know, a lot of them, you know, this whole move towards purpose, understanding what you can do after you know, the structure of which I will just tell you the framework that we’ve come up with, the ideal seven day framework that is working to start helping people start working in social impact or, or in education.

Before they retire, so that once they have stepped away from full-time careers, they at least have options of how they can meaningfully use their time.

Keren Etkin: That is

Neeraj Sagar: me know when you want to, want to want to hear my seven day framework. I will tell you, but I I will do that later.

Keren Etkin: Okay, well let’s I come back to that ’cause I have one more question before we dive into that. Have you had any requests from the people on the platform? I. To help them with preparing for job interviews or reskilling. Or upskilling. Let’s say people have been out of the workforce for a year or two, they may feel their knowledge is outdated.

Can you help with that too?

Neeraj Sagar: So actually we’ve been very explicit that that’s not something we do. And, and there’s a reason we’ve done that because we’ve learned, you know, the. To do so what the path we as Wisdom Circle have chosen is to go down a very specific area and do it extremely well. The moment we start putting in re-skilling with it, it starts changing the culture of the company.

It starts changing the. Because at the end what we realized, what really matters is what do you do after you get reskilled? And I think the bigger problem right now, Keren, and by the way, it’s a very, we’ve seen this in Singapore, for example, the Singapore government spends a lot of reskilling. But what do people do after they get reskilled is still a gap.

So we have chosen not to do that. Do we get requests? Yes, we do. We actually direct them towards other partners or like organizations that do it. We ourselves don’t do re-skilling because it just is a, and given that we are a startup, we are a funded startup our focus is on having a, a profitable business first and to grow this business internationally so that we can help not.

A hundred thousand, a million, but our goal is 10 to a hundred million people in the next three to five years, right. Is what we want to help. But for that, we need to create jobs. So we are right now very single mindedly focused on creating jobs because otherwise, you know, as, as you said, right, it’s, and for me, especially, I, I am actually like, the reason I like your H Tech map is because there’s so much you can do in this space.

And, and I get distracted, right? Every time I see a new idea, I’m like, you know, that’s a good idea. That’s a good idea. But in a way, I’ve had to focus myself to say, focus and get this one thing right before I expand into other things. So but what we do do, Keren, is these sessions that we hold. Like, for example, we hold sessions on generative AI or what’s happening in here.

And again, we hold these with people who really know the space. And, and by the way, you’re right, I think this segment is so curious about learning and learning new things. We always underestimate that, oh, people don’t want to learn. I mean, I, the amount of inquisitiveness and curiosity that exists in this segment is amazing.

I, they absorb things so quickly and they want to, right, and they go deep. So we host sessions. For them to like for example, you’re about to hold a session on purpose and we are doing it with with a gentleman called Jake in London who’s gonna talk about the science of purpose, which has to do with flow, which has to do with flow and matching it with skills.

So we are giving them the tools in the structures to think about it and go deeper with our partners than us doing it. And, and I’m telling you, this segment is so curious, Keren. It’s I think what I like is, look, I think the world is fine. I think the, this whole notion of humanity and what will humanity do in the world of ai, I think that is, you know, yes, it’s something we should worry about, but you know, humanity and wise people will find a way.

I, I, I, I truly, I think my view has, has improved so much. You know, there’s always this, oh, you know, AI is gonna take away jobs and the world is going to come and do an end. And Bill Gates is saying, we only have to work two days a week. Yes, but you know what? We will find a way to contribute to the betterment of humanity as a whole if left onto ourselves.

Keren Etkin: Absolutely. And it, you know, everything you said makes a lot of sense because as eventually, at the end of the day, as a marketplace type of startup, have to figure out the supply and demand. And it, and it sounds like the here is the, the tricky part

Neeraj Sagar: Correct,

Keren Etkin: figure out.

Neeraj Sagar: Correct.

Keren Etkin: so tell me about this seven day framework.

Neeraj Sagar: Okay. So, so what we did was we in these last three years, we’ve interviewed many, many people. In India and overseas and what we, what what we are trying to figure out. So a couple of learnings. So what we are trying to figure out is what is an ideal 65-year-old happy person? Okay, so our thing was, let’s interview a lot of people and figure out what makes people happy, right?

And especially as you get older, what are the different things that they are doing meaningfully that is giving them purpose, joy. Happiness and, and, and keeps their blood pressure low, keeps their health metrics in, you know, in check and in general you see them smiling, right? So that is our purpose. So, so as we interviewed people, so a couple of learnings.

The first, so this is away from the seven day framework. And I’m not sure if it’s appropriate to say it on this platform, but I still say it and you can decide to keep it or not. But one thing that we learned is. People who have daughters are happier. It’s, you know, and we, we tested it and we, of course, we believe in the hypothesis, but, and, and I have two sons.

My brother has two sons, my parents had two sons. So I, I think I’m the complete opposite, right? So I’m poor parents and poor us, but anyone who has daughters is just. Happier as they age, especially the men. Right? So that was one big learning and aha moment for us. And I also realized that like 70% of our team is women.

And I realized that women in general have a much more connect with the solutioning for this segment. Then men do and not, it is not against men. I’m just saying women are just better at doing. So that was the first learning. The, the second learning was that which is now this seven day framework.

So, so, so think of the 65-year-old who’s happy, has a daughter or daughters and now they have this seven day framework. Now, if you don’t have daughters, it’s not in your control. Let’s talk about a seven day framework. Now, the 70 framework has the first two days of as a good, happy 65-year-old is. Using the first two days in a profession that they’re good at for which someone pays them.

Okay? So if you’re a good finance professional, if you’re a good marketing professional, you are continuing to help advise companies in that area. They are paying you for it, and those two days makes you enough money for you not to dip into your savings. Okay, so that’s your first two days. The third day is a day of teaching, and this is a one to many teaching, right?

This is getting up in front of younger people and teaching them something. The, the, and you. You’ve talked about intergenerational connectivity, you’ve talked about the importance of that, and I think this piece is one that is, we found anyone who’s doing this is generally just, again, the happiness comes from insight because they’re interacting with younger people.

That’s a third day. The fourth day is a day of giving. Working for a social impact organization, working for a cause that’s closer, closest to you. You know, helping out in community, helping out in whichever social framework that you, you call yours. Right? And the third, and by the way, all this can be interacted and can be made one whole, but that’s your fourth day.

The fifth, sixth, and seventh day are a combination of. Learning, you know, people who are curious, who are still wanting to continue learning something it, you know, it is about spending time with families travel. So it’s basically your time, the three days, and people who’ve cracked this are the ones that we have found the more happier of the lot.